RULE CLARIFICATION

Discussions, queries and suggestions regarding BFA Rules and Policies

RULE CLARIFICATION

Postby ForgyPete » 06 Aug 2012, 13:28

Can a BFA official please clarify a rule for me please.......

Rule 5.17c....

The rule states..... "The dog must hurdle the 4 jumps in succession, trigger the box, return over all 4 jumps with the ball in its mouth."

This seems to be the norm....

However, the same rule section later states in the same paragraph..... "If the dog reaches the finish start/line before the preceeding dog has reached the start/finish line, or does not take every jump, or does not trigger the box and take the ball from the cup, or does not return with the ball, the dog must run again."

Which part of the rule is correct because one section says that the dog only has to trigger the box and come back with the ball. So, if the ball fires from the cup, hits the dogs nose and drops to the floor and then picks it up and returns with it, this is ok. But the dog has not took the ball from the cup as the rule says and the rule states that unless the ball is take from the cup, the dog has to run again.

Either of these rules could be right but they cant both be!!

Clarification is needed on this as i am sure this happens in a lot of races.
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Re: RULE CLARIFICATION

Postby Vix » 06 Aug 2012, 13:48

the ball must be fired from the box and the dog must be the one trigger the box
if box malfunctions and ball is fired before dog gets there and dog picks ball up from floor, it is a fault
if dog steals ball from box without triggering it, it is a fault
if box malfunctions and dog is unable to trigger it, therefore has to steal it, it is a fault
if a ball falls out of its cup before the dog gets there and the dog picks the ball from the floor, it is a fault.
If due to any box malfunction a ball leaves the cup before the dog gets there, the box loader may load another ball, if the dog retrieves that ball, there is no fault
Storm Chasers
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Re: RULE CLARIFICATION

Postby Vix » 06 Aug 2012, 13:50

if the dog triggers the box, the box fires ball, ball hits dog on nose, dog picks ball up from floor, this is not a fault
the ball was released from the box due to the dog triggering it, therefore, no fault

im not 100% sure what exactly youre getting at? both scenarios make sense to me?....

Edit... think i understand, but if you were to make every dog that fumbled re-run, there would be some awfully long flyballing days. a fumble is NOT a fault
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Re: RULE CLARIFICATION

Postby bessamour » 06 Aug 2012, 13:55

If the dog has triggered the box and "fumbles the ball" i.e. doesn't catch it but but picks it up and takes it back to the handler, that isn't a fault because it has triggered the box. It isn't a fault. Please correct me if I'm wrong because "fumbling" happens quite frequently and as long as the dog takes the fumbled ball back over the 4 jumps to it's handler, it's OK.
Valerie
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Re: RULE CLARIFICATION

Postby ttc546 » 06 Aug 2012, 14:03

ForgyPete is right to raise the query.

"does not trigger the box and take the ball from the cup"

It is the use of the word AND that is the query here. This part of the rule states that the dog must trigger the box AND take the ball from the cup.

In practice, we all know that it is just triggering the box that is the rule.

I would say it just needs re-wording along the lines of AND THAT loaded ball and no other ball, even if it bounces off somewhere..
Chris
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Re: RULE CLARIFICATION

Postby ForgyPete » 06 Aug 2012, 15:23

Thanks Chris, you understand what i mean.

I fully understand the box malfunction rules and they are not in question. I know that it is normally accepted that if a ball bounces off a dog and the dog picks the ball up and returns with it. I also know that this happens quite a lot and yes it would extend the races considerably and become a little "tedious".

The point i am making is that the RULES state that the dog has to take the ball from the cup. It doesnt say "the ball that was in the cup thats now on the floor.

It is as Chris said something that needs ammending. If you have a judge in training he is training to judge by the rules. This particular rule is not clear and can be interperated in either way!!

Remove the section "taking the ball from the cup" and put in "trigger the box and return with the ball that was loaded when the box was triggered". This would be more clear and make sense.

Pete
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Re: RULE CLARIFICATION

Postby Vix » 06 Aug 2012, 19:49

if the dog was to "take the ball from the cup" that would be classed as stealing, the ball should in fact be in mid flight when the dog catches the ball. so TAKING is also an incorrect term

ForgyPete wrote: "trigger the box and return with the ball that was loaded when the box was triggered".


well that could still be a ball that has fallen out of the box, so still wouldnt be clear enough. i really really dont mean to be rude, but im not exactly sure why this needs clarifying? if you know what it means, and i see that you do... what exactly is the problem? the rule to me is clear, if you think it really needs re-wording (and i have never known it to be a query or issue that has come up in the ring or elsewhere) then perhaps an AGM proposal is in order? :)
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Re: RULE CLARIFICATION

Postby ForgyPete » 07 Aug 2012, 13:57

Sorry, i didnt write the rules i was simply asking the people who did to clarify something as the rule section is a little ambiguous.

The USA rule reads "trigger the box, releasing the ball, retrieve the ball and return over the jumps". Perfect as this covers everything so long as the dog triggers the box and brings the released ball back whether from the box or the floor.

The UK rule is contradictive as it has added and says the dog has to re-run again if it hasnt taken the ball from the cup. This implies that unless the dog has done this it has a fault. Its quite clearly written!

The way the rule is worded in the first section is trigger the box and return with the ball. If the dog triggers the box and returns with a ball that is already on the floor then it has in actual fact done what the rule says "return with the ball" because it doesnt specify which ball. There are lots of instances in races where this happens and a fault is given so why is a fault not given for not complying with the other rule in the same section "taking the ball from the cup"?

People have their own interpretation of the rule. You say the dog should catch the ball in mid flight. If it picks the ball up off the floor then its not in mid flight! The rules dont mention anything about "stealing".

A rule change is needed in my opinion.
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Re: RULE CLARIFICATION

Postby Kuri of Awatuna » 08 Aug 2012, 13:22

As Chris has already said, ForgyPete has raised a valid query. I had to read and re-read the original post a couple of times before I was clear about the distinction. Unfortunately, it looks as if most of the other posters have tried to answer without thoroughly reading the question, and have just re-stated what we all know already :roll:

The USA rule looks unambiguous to me, perhaps we should adopt that wording...
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Re: RULE CLARIFICATION

Postby SpencerT » 08 Aug 2012, 18:19

Think that the UK and US rules are distinctly different. Don't know how a box judge can ensure that the ball has been triggered from the box. In practise you you only have to check that he ball that was in the cup is the one they are retrieving and they have triggered the box.

The UK rule could be read as where it says 'from the cup' as meaning 'is / was in the cup'.

Think everyone knows how to apply the rule...
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